US The so-called "boy crisis" isn't real

[Envy]

No, I do. I think it's a flimsy movement based on a poor imitation of actual concerns from minority groups which are not given actual equality under the law.

Sort-of a jealous reaction. Like, "why can't there be a straight pride day?" Because straight people are not discriminated against under the law for being straight. The same logic applies to MRA.

A movement will never be the sum of its individuals.

So I think it's pretty weird to imagine that they all think alike.

And of course the old "Black people are racist too."

Are you talking about the statement or the context here?

 

[FortyTwo]

Yet when the statistics in education are compared, women have equality - they actually have the advantage. It's only when the flawed comparison of a subset of men compared to all women that the groups equalize.

But obviously, compared to a whole, one gender is doing worse. But that oversimplifies the problem as well - what we need to do is "widen" it, as distasteful as that seems. When demographics are broken down, we'd see groups falling behind - certain racial groups doing worse, those who are poor doing worse, etc. I'd also advocate attacking the stereotypes that lead to certain groups undervaluing academic achievement. (This also plays in reverse as well - women sports at schools are notoriously undervalued, which is a shame.)

It's a failure of our educational system, and that has grave results for our society - when certain groups have an arbitrary advantage in education, it means that individuals are not reaching their full potential.

This isn't a widened issue though. Not in the slightest, as MLP proposed it. The issue is that certain males are perpetuating this idea of being oppressed when they are actually favored.

The straight, white, Christian male is the most privileged group in Western society, and each of those qualities applied to any other human also indicate a higher privilege than those who do not possess them. And believe me, the education system follows this hierarchy exactly the same as any other part of society. Teachers are people who are just as affected by these values as anyone else. The same applies to all staff. This should be obvious. So to argue that females have some special, magical advantage just because they appear to be statistically inclined toward academic success is crazy. School is not a social flip-flop. It's a more exaggerated version of the culture that exists outside of it. The level of misandry that I witness daily from teachers, students, figures of authority, and really everyone at school is absurd. You don't see much about straight, white, Christian male students being discriminated against for those reasons (except in select cases in very specific neighborhoods and areas, but we're looking at the wider perspective, right?)

Yes, the education system is a failure, and I know that well enough. It is the sole gripe that is at the front of my mind almost every single moment of every waking day. The education system fails everyone except a select few that know how to use it to their advantage. But it doesn't fail in the ways you're making it out to.

 

[FortyTwo]

A movement will never be the sum of its individuals.

So I think it's pretty weird to imagine that they all think alike.

The very fact that the movement exists is a problem in itself. Its central ideas are still a poor imitation of actual concerns of actual people who have the right to be actually concerned. So anyone identifying as part of it is going to be thinking alike in that way.

 

[Envy]

The straight, white, Christian male is the most privileged group in Western society,

I'd argue about the Christian part though, many countries in the Wes Europe are becoming less and less Christian or maybe less religious overall.

 

[Envy]

The very fact that the movement exists is a problem in itself. Its central ideas are still a poor imitation of actual concerns of actual people who have the right to be actually concerned. So anyone identifying as part of it is going to be thinking alike in that way.

I suppose we are talking about different things then.

Or maybe I should start talking about Men's liberation instead?

 

[FortyTwo]

I'd argue about the Christian part though, many countries in the Wes Europe are becoming less and less Christian or maybe less religious overall.

I'm not an expert on Europe, so I'll give you that one. But the U.S. for one has a bizarre obsession with Christianity, especially for a country founded on the principle of religious equality.

 

[FortyTwo]

I suppose we are talking about different things then.

Or maybe I should start talking about Men's liberation instead?

Men are not excluded by a patriarchal society. That's the opposite of logic.

So not only is "men's liberation" a poor imitation of the movement of feminism, it also is fundamentally nonsensical.

 

[Envy]

Men are not excluded by a patriarchal society. That's the opposite of logic.

So not only is "men's liberation" a poor imitation of the movement of feminism, it also is fundamentally nonsensical.

But that's wrong.

 

[Spang]

Is MRA Men Riding Albatrosses?

 

[Envy]

But that's wrong.

To elaborate further - I think you by "not excluded" mean in the sense of empowerment, control and influence, in which your assessment would be correct....But Men's liberation had nothing to do with that. They are more akin to solving those restrictions imposed on us by the patriarchate, such as things involving family, emotions, "female things" and other things related to gender roles and such. Now, one might consider the fact of just being a feminist, but I think that it's a greater feeling of individuality by doing this. If a person works with giving young men good role-models, self-esteem, healthy values and ways to educate and keep oneself busy as opposed to certain other things, then I see no problem with calling oneself a MRA or whatever.

 

[Freesia]

Is MRA Men Riding Albatrosses?

Men Reading AynRand


Actually that is not so inaccurate.

 

[Envy]

Men Reading AynRand


Actually that is not so inaccurate.

Sadly, I haven't.

But I should.

 

[Freesia]

Men Receiving Aardvarks.

 

[Envy]

Men Resembling Amphibians

 

[FortyTwo]

To elaborate further - I think you by "not excluded" mean in the sense of empowerment, control and influence, in which your assessment would be correct....But Men's liberation had nothing to do with that. They are more akin to solving those restrictions imposed on us by the patriarchate, such as things involving family, emotions, "female things" and other things related to gender roles and such. Now, one might consider the fact of just being a feminist, but I think that it's a greater feeling of individuality by doing this. If a person works with giving young men good role-models, self-esteem, healthy values and ways to educate and keep oneself busy as opposed to certain other things, then I see no problem with calling oneself a MRA or whatever.

All of those issues could easily be fixed by just letting women get an equal standing and not contributing more to the sense of entitlement men have over women.

Sadly, I haven't.

But I should.

Urgh, don't waste your time with that crap. Not worth it.

 

[Envy]

All of those issues could easily be fixed by just letting women get an equal standing and not contributing more to the sense of entitlement men have over women.

One thing does not exclude the other.

Urgh, don't waste your time with that crap. Not worth it.

Crap as in bad writing or a dumb theme?

 

[FortyTwo]

One thing does not exclude the other.

The MRA just contributes more to the entitlement. It does not help women; it only helps men to continue to feel superior.

Crap as in bad writing or a dumb theme?

Dumb theme. Her books seem to be praised by literary critics looking purely at the conventions involved so I doubt they're poorly written.

Although one could say the same for Hemingway, whose writing is absolute garbage.

(Speaking of getting off topic...)

 

[das_nut]

This isn't a widened issue though. Not in the slightest, as MLP proposed it. The issue is that certain males are perpetuating this idea of being oppressed when they are actually favored.

The straight, white, Christian male is the most privileged group in Western society, and each of those qualities applied to any other human also indicate a higher privilege than those who do not possess them.

If you don't want to widen the issue, then why are you using "straight, white Christian" as adjectives?

So to argue that females have some special, magical advantage just because they appear to be statistically inclined toward academic success is crazy.

Do you think people are claiming a magical privilege?

You don't see much about straight, white, Christian male students being discriminated against for those reasons (except in select cases in very specific neighborhoods and areas, but we're looking at the wider perspective, right?)

I'd argue you're missing a qualifier - wealth. It's a large advantage when it comes to education, since (in the US) schools tend to receive a significant portion of their funding locally.

But if we are looking at gender, and gender only, then in regards to education, then in the US, as a whole, women do tend to do better than men in many areas - such as the amount enrolled in college, the amount obtaining almost all higher degrees, ahead in writing ability, etc.

Now I'm not sure if it's so much discrimination (at least in the traditional sense of the term) as much as outdated cultural norms are affecting both men and women - and those outdated norms are a net positive for women when it comes to education, but a net negative to men when it comes to education. (Inside certain areas of education, such gender stereotypes may favor men over women, for example, STEM.)

FWIW, I don't see it as a problem of women having an advantage in education. I'd rather see it as a problem that the education system is not benefiting different groups to the same degree. I don't want to tear any group's academic performance down. I'd rather raise all groups' academic performance to the same level.

 

[FortyTwo]

If you don't want to widen the issue, then why are you using "straight, white Christian" as adjectives?

Because they are all groups that occasionally try to play the victim, as is being done by the MRA.

Do you think people are claiming a magical privilege?

No, the "magical" was sarcasm. But people, specifically you, are making it out as if the education system caters to females over males, and that is absolutely not the case.

I'd argue you're missing a qualifier - wealth. It's a large advantage when it comes to education, since (in the US) schools tend to receive a significant portion of their funding locally.

True. Another group that likes to make it look like they're being targeted (and when they are being targeted it's for a damn good reason, but that's a different debate altogether).

But if we are looking at gender, and gender only, then in regards to education, then in the US, as a whole, women do tend to do better than men in many areas - such as the amount enrolled in college, the amount obtaining almost all higher degrees, ahead in writing ability, etc.

I don't think anyone's denying this. It's the idea that this is a result of the education system favoring men that is absurd.

Now I'm not sure if it's so much discrimination (at least in the traditional sense of the term) as much as outdated cultural norms are affecting both men and women - and those outdated norms are a net positive for women when it comes to education, but a net negative to men when it comes to education. (Inside certain areas of education, such gender stereotypes may favor men over women, for example, STEM.)

Bolded: Yes
Underlined: No

FWIW, I don't see it as a problem of women having an advantage in education. I'd rather see it as a problem that the education system is not benefiting different groups to the same degree. I don't want to tear any group's academic performance down. I'd rather raise all groups' academic performance to the same level.

Again with the faux-profound and sweeping statement at the end, creating an illusion of tolerance of a very general sort. I suppose trying to end on a note upon which everyone can agree is a good strategy, but anyone who has read your posts before has certainly taken note of their undirected and cyclic nature.

 

[das_nut]

But that's wrong.

Envy - FYI: MRA, like many groups, the most vocal members are often the most extreme. There's misogynists in that movement, and they often are the loudest.