US The so-called "boy crisis" isn't real

[Envy]

Nnn, maybe I should tell my brother that he's a good person more often.

 

[Pickle Juice]

...Girls are expected to be, and are rewarded for being nice, for being people pleasers. So they do their homework, they do what is expected of them to a greater extent than boys. That benefits them in school. It doesn't benefit them in employment, where they would be better off being competitive, nor does it benefit them in their personal relationships, where they are generally the ones to "adjust", to modify their personalities and their behaviors. I see ittle girls who are so eager to please, and I wince for them, knowing how it's going to work against them in their lives.

It's something that affects pretty much every area of life for females, and its impact has been studied in many areas.

Exactly, and not just that, but that women have to work twice as hard for a fraction of the opportunities for advancement available to men.

And on a personal note, I find it significant that there are people here half my age who consider themselves feminist, and yet call me aggressive for behavior they don't question in the male posters. It really does make me wonder if people are ever going to stop brainwashing girls to be pleasant and submissive, and when women are going to stop attacking other women merely for being blunt and outspoken, instead of coy and charming.

 

[Clueless Git]

Are we allowed to discuss if testoserone and estrogen may play any part in this?

 

[das_nut]

And on a personal note, I find it significant that there are people here half my age who consider themselves feminist, and yet call me aggressive for behavior they don't question in the male posters.

Did I miss someone calling you aggressive in this thread?

 

[mlp]

Did I miss someone calling you aggressive in this thread?

Is there a new rule that, with respect to any given thread, nothing exists other than what is said in that thread?

Might as well get rid of the quote function, as well as outlawing personal experiences, cites to sources, etc.

 

[Clueless Git]

Exactly, and not just that, but that women have to work twice as hard for a fraction of the opportunities for advancement available to men.

And on a personal note, I find it significant that there are people here half my age who consider themselves feminist, and yet call me aggressive for behavior they don't question in the male posters. It really does make me wonder if people are ever going to stop brainwashing girls to be pleasant and submissive, and when women are going to stop attacking other women merely for being blunt and outspoken, instead of coy and charming.

Your not going to like me Pickle ...

I had assumed you were male.

 

[das_nut]

Is there a new rule that, with respect to any given thread, nothing exists other than what is said in that thread?

There's no rule, but since threads don't close due to inactivity on this forum, there's always the old threads to comment in.

 

[mlp]

There's no rule, but since threads don't close due to inactivity on this forum, there's always the old threads to comment in.

But then she would be pulling this thread into the other, and that would be equally bad, if not worse, according to your preferences.

Or perhaps the fact that she was citing a personal experience in response to my post about females being expected to be "nice", to be people pleasers, flew right over your head.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Your not going to like me Pickle ...

I had assumed you were male.

I dunno if you are being serious. It's not the first time people have assumed I'm male, if I post somewhere where I don't use a photo of myself though.

Mostly I find it interesting, sometimes amusing, depending on the reaction. But never either flattering, or insulting.

What I wish for is to live in a society where men will be as neutral when being mistaken as female as I am when being mistaken as male. The things people interpret as masculine or feminine are completely arbitrary and artificial, and serve no one.

 

[das_nut]

But then she would be pulling this thread into the other, and that would be equally bad, if not worse, according to your preferences.

Well, we wouldn't want to be jumping into every imaginary subject, would we?

 

[Pickle Juice]

Are we allowed to discuss if testoserone and estrogen may play any part in this?

I don't see why not. I don't really subscribe to the idea that people can't use their minds to override what their hormones are up to though, so to me testosterone and estrogen won't play a significant part in the issue discussed in the op.

 

[Clueless Git]

I dunno if you are being serious. It's not the first time people have assumed I'm male, if I post somewhere where I don't use a photo of myself though.

Mostly I find it interesting, sometimes amusing, depending on the reaction. But never either flattering, or insulting.

And now it occurs to me that if I had seen that as a complimentary thing to say (which I did) then that would be insulting wouldn't it?

What I wish for is to live in a society where men will be as neutral when being mistaken as female as I am when being mistaken as male. The things people interpret as masculine or feminine are completely arbitrary and artificial, and serve no one.

Honest question: Can you tell, largely, who is male or female by the way they think (as can be seen in their posts) Pickle?

I don't see why not. I don't really subscribe to the idea that people can't use their minds to override what their hormones are up to though, so to me testosterone and estrogen won't play a significant part in the issue discussed in the op.

If people are in denial of what their hormones are up to then they are not going to be mindfull enough to use their minds to overide their hormones, are they?

Hormones is definitely up to something. That is what hormones is for.

 

[Pickle Juice]

And now it occurs to me that if I had seen that as a complimentary thing to say (which I did) then that would be insulting wouldn't it?

What's insulting is in the mind of the receiver. One may attempt to insult another, but if that one refuses to see it as an insult it fails to insult. I'd say the same thing goes for unintended insults, only, if it's not intended as an insult, and isn't taken as an insult, it's not insulting.

Honest question: Can you tell, largely, who is male or female by the way they think (as can be seen in their posts) Pickle?

Honest answer: I'm a relative newcomer to the internet, and the thing I liked best about forums was that I could make a username and pick an avatar that left my gender a mystery, and so could everyone else. At last I thought I had found a venue in which to express my opinions and not have them judged based on my physical characteristics.

Not only do I not bother to read posts in the context of the possible gender of the poster, I enjoy not knowing, and I enjoy not wanting to know. I like that it doesn't matter to me. It leaves me free to interpret people's posts based on the content of said posts, at least until the nature of their characters becomes apparent through familiarity.

If people are in denial of what their hormones are up to then they are not going to be mindfull enough to use their minds to overide their hormones, are they?

Hormones is definitely up to something. That is what hormones is for.

I don't think that being aware that you don't need to be an unthinking slave to your hormones if you don't want to be, and being in denial of the purpose of hormones, are quite the same thing.

 

[FortyTwo]

It's based on physiological facts.

Some of it, sure - girls do mature faster than boys.

I won't claim anything as impudent as a "victory", but if you've given up on me, then I can't force you to argue anything more.
It's regretful though, since I will probably leave with some prejudice against you.

When did I say I'd given up on you? I think your perspective is outdated. That doesn't mean you're not worth it as a person, or that you won't ever see any of the points I'm trying to make.

Also, in the end it's my opinion. All we can do is argue our opinions.

Based on my observations and experiences over a lifetime, the fact that girls do better in school than lower income/lower social standing boys is attributtable to something that arises from our (patriarchical) society, and it's something that works against girls in every avenue of life other than education and the possibility of ending up in jail. It's not something that came into being for the benefit of boys - quite the contrary.

Girls are expected to be, and are rewarded for being nice, for being people pleasers. So they do their homework, they do what is expected of them to a greater extent than boys. That benefits them in school. It doesn't benefit them in employment, where they would be better off being competitive, nor does it benefit them in their personal relationships, where they are generally the ones to "adjust", to modify their personalities and their behaviors. I see ittle girls who are so eager to please, and I wince for them, knowing how it's going to work against them in their lives.

It's something that affects pretty much every area of life for females, and its impact has been studied in many areas.

As the OP article notes, boys from higher income families, whose fathers have college degrees, do as well as girls. From observation, that's attributtable to the fact that those fathers drum into their sons from an early age that in order to compete, they have to do well in school and get post secondary and post graduate degrees.

Gasp! A woman posting about women's cultural norms in a thread about how those norms are often misinterpreted?

Seriously though, the lack of female input (or rather, the massive male presence as opposed to female) in this thread is astounding (and I say that as a male who is participating in the discussion - I'm not pretending to have any special exception made for me or other males arguing the same point).

Circular definition.

Exactly. That's the absurdity of it showing through. Just because some males have privilege over other males doesn't take away the fact that all males have privilege.

Is making the assumption that, depending on the state and the field, the educational differences between boys and girls is due to coincidence is the simplest explanation you can think of?

To be frank, I was proposing one possible explanation because I have never personally experienced the societal pressure of being female. MLP and Pickle Juice explained it far better than I (or any male) could.

A culture (well, a collection of interconnected cultures, actually) that provides more real or perceived ways to excel for boys than to girls. For example, a greater emphasis on male sports can give boys a way to gain ranking when compared to girls (not that most boys will ever grow up to be a pro sports players - it's about as realistic as winning the lottery, but there's emphasis there). Cultural stereotypes can also reduce the worth of academic achievement, consider the cultural stereotypes of nerds, for example, and the default gender usually assumed.

Greater emphasis on males in sports stems from the belief that women are weak and cannot do physical work or enjoy physical activities. Male positive.

Nerds are assumed to be intellectuals. The fact that nerds are assumed to be male shows that men are assumed to be smarter than women (men do dominate the scientific and mathematical fields even today, after all). Female nerds are often scorned by male members of those communities, which often take on a hyper-masculine stance, as "fake" or are targeted sexually. Male positive.

Females who achieve academically, on the other hand, are expected to do so as part of their nature, instead of men, who are considered more leniently in terms of their intelligence. Female academic achievements are often downplayed. Additionally, a woman who does not make great academic achievements is often assumed to be stupid, at a much quicker glance than a male with the same intellectual ability. The issue of assumed sexual promiscuity and its negative view in society adds an entirely new dimension to this as well.

Male. Friggin'. Positive.

Here are some more:

Men are not expected to hit women. Female privilege? No. Women are assumed to be weak and fragile, and thus not able to survive as well as the manly men. Male positive.

Men are often scorned for acting emotionally and told to stop acting "like girls." Women rarely get the same treatment. Female privilege? No. Women are again assumed to be weak, emotional, and irrational, unlike men, who are applauded for the opposite. Male positive.

Women are often spared in court cases where a man, under the same circumstances, would be convicted. Female privilege? No. As above, women aren't held accountable for the things they've done, because they aren't viewed as being able to make conscious decisions to the same ability that men can. Male positive.

And another:

And now it occurs to me that if I had seen that as a complimentary thing to say (which I did) then that would be insulting wouldn't it?

Being compared to, or possessing, characteristics usually attributed to women can't be a compliment, of course. Men are the superior sex, so comparing a woman to a man must be a compliment.

 

[mlp]

Gasp! A woman posting about women's cultural norms in a thread about how those norms are often misinterpreted?

Seriously though, the lack of female input (or rather, the massive male presence as opposed to female) in this thread is astounding (and I say that as a male who is participating in the discussion - I'm not pretending to have any special exception made for me or other males arguing the same point).

I think most of the female members have simply given up on rehashing the same arguments with the same several males. It gets tedious in the extreme, and even I, with my rather stupid tendency to keep bashing my head against the same old walls, stepped away from this thread for a while.

It's a dilemna, because when one gets fed up with wasting one's time, one is at the same time basically giving these guys what they want - to shut up females who don't fall into line.

 

[Envy]

Some of it, sure - girls do mature faster than boys.

And it was stuff about hormones as well.
A boys brain will probably not be the same as a girls brain.

And as such, many schools will probably not accommodate their teachings for how boys develop, thus causing quite a bit of problems.

When did I say I'd given up on you? I think your perspective is outdated. That doesn't mean you're not worth it as a person, or that you won't ever see any of the points I'm trying to make.

Also, in the end it's my opinion. All we can do is argue our opinions.

I like to base my opinions on facts, although I can't deny that I'm biased too.
I understand your general stance too, but I think your assumptions are a bit off now and then.

Exactly. That's the absurdity of it showing through. Just because some males have privilege over other males doesn't take away the fact that all males have privilege.

Such as?

Sure, I get that you mean that a man will be valued more, but reality isn't always that pretty.

Greater emphasis on males in sports stems from the belief that women are weak and cannot do physical work or enjoy physical activities. Male positive.

Those very males are often assumed to be meat-heads and idiots.

Nerds are assumed to be intellectuals. The fact that nerds are assumed to be male shows that men are assumed to be smarter than women (men do dominate the scientific and mathematical fields even today, after all). Female nerds are often scorned by male members of those communities, which often take on a hyper-masculine stance, as "fake" or are targeted sexually. Male positive.

I think the nerd = intellectual thing is becoming less and less actual nowadays.

Men are not expected to hit women. Female privilege? No. Women are assumed to be weak and fragile, and thus not able to survive as well as the manly men. Male positive.

You are aware that there actually is quite a significant physical differences in that regard?

Women are often spared in court cases where a man, under the same circumstances, would be convicted. Female privilege? No. As above, women aren't held accountable for the things they've done, because they aren't viewed as being able to make conscious decisions to the same ability that men can. Male positive.

Nah, that particular case is because the assumption that an imprisoned woman will have disastrous results on the assumed family.
Or so I've read.

And on a personal note, I find it significant that there are people here half my age who consider themselves feminist, and yet call me aggressive for behavior they don't question in the male posters. It really does make me wonder if people are ever going to stop brainwashing girls to be pleasant and submissive, and when women are going to stop attacking other women merely for being blunt and outspoken, instead of coy and charming.

Who said that I don't question obvious insults in male posters?
Sometimes it's not because you're a X, sometimes it's just because you're a buffoon.

 

[Envy]

I think most of the female members have simply given up on rehashing the same arguments with the same several males. It gets tedious in the extreme, and even I, with my rather stupid tendency to keep bashing my head against the same old walls, stepped away from this thread for a while.

It's a dilemna, because when one gets fed up with wasting one's time, one is at the same time basically giving these guys what they want - to shut up females who don't fall into line.

*cough cough*

You wouldn't include little me in that group, would you?

 

[mlp]

Sometimes it's not because you're a X, sometimes it's just because you're a buffoon.

You've now levelled personal insults against a couple of female members, but if you have done the same to any of the males, I've missed it. Maybe it's time for you to examine your biases.

 

[Envy]

You've now levelled personal insults against a couple of female members, but if you have done the same to any of the males, I've missed it. Maybe it's time for you to examine your biases.

No, only one, and I think I've run across some nasty males before too. I think others of them often have had a tendency to be too subtle to catch with a glancing eye.
And I'm not entirely unaware of my probable biasness, but that doesn't render any critique invalid.

 

[mlp]

*cough cough*

You wouldn't include little me in that group, would you?

No, I hadn't. Your posts in general appear to me to come from a place of naivite/lack of real world experience, combined with a general tone deafness/inability to understand other people's experiences and emotions.