US The so-called "boy crisis" isn't real

[Pickle Juice]

I don't think kazy meant we were assholes, just that these kinds of discussions often bring out the worst in people. I like reading everyone's opinions here.

I guess I don't see these topics as bringing out the worst in people either, no matter what term is chosen to define it. I think if people really feel that way about certain types of debate, not only are they better off not participating, they are probably better off not even looking, if they can't resist telling those of us who post in these kinds of threads why they won't post in these kinds of threads. I don't go into food or chit chat threads and tell people why I don't post in them.

 

[Freesia]

I know she doesnt think we are assholes. But these things do need to be discussed sometimes.

 

[Freesia]

I can see what she means because sometimes I open a thread and think, nope, I am not getting involved in that.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I think if people really feel that way about certain types of debate, not only are they better off not participating, they are probably better off not even looking, if they can't resist telling those of us who post in these kinds of threads why they won't post in these kinds of threads. I don't go into food or chit chat threads and tell people why I don't post in them.

I think members on here should be able to post their opinion surely? It's a debate. I have been biting my tongue and not responding to this thread as I am irritated by almost all of it.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I think members on here should be able to post their opinion surely? It's a debate. I have been biting my tongue and not responding to this thread as I am irritated by almost all of it.

Yes of course. It's good for a forum to have opposing points of view. If it is something a person can't cope with emotionally however, it may be better for their own peace of mind to avoid stuff that makes them hate the people rather than the opinions.

I'm still not going to go around to threads I don't post in and tell people why I don't post in them though. I don't see what purpose that serves, except to make people feel badly.

 

[kazyeeqen]

^^^condescending.

Also weird double standard.

 

[FortyTwo]

Though I can't speak for Pickle Juice, I don't think the "not coping emotionally" was directed at you. More to the people who posted saying that they didn't want to get involved in this thread.

And it's not especially condescending, considering that many people stay away from certain threads because they think it would be best. I know I do that sometimes.

 

[Clueless Git]

There are some incredible denials of empiricaly demonstrable facts going on here.

Some people need to pay more attention to Pickles posts, imho.

 

[Clueless Git]

Men are not expected to hit women. Female privilege? No. Women are assumed to be weak and fragile, and thus not able to survive as well as the manly men.

This is the sort of thing I was talking about.

 

[Pickle Juice]

^^^condescending.

And this isn't.

No. I don't participate in threads like these because everyone's an *******, not just the dudes. Wonderful smart people become tremendous assholes in these horrible, horrible threads..

Also weird double standard.

Depending on where you aim your mirror, yes.

 

[Freesia]

There are some incredible denials of empiricaly demonstrable facts going on here.

Dont worry, you will learn to do better research in time .

 

[das_nut]

Greater emphasis on males in sports stems from the belief that women are weak and cannot do physical work or enjoy physical activities. Male positive.

Well, unless you are a male who isn't into sports or physical work. Then your "maleness" is called into question.

Nerds are assumed to be intellectuals. The fact that nerds are assumed to be male shows that men are assumed to be smarter than women (men do dominate the scientific and mathematical fields even today, after all). Female nerds are often scorned by male members of those communities, which often take on a hyper-masculine stance, as "fake" or are targeted sexually. Male positive.

What a "male positive" stereotype may look like:

Wow, with positive stereotypes like that, who needs negative ones!

Men are not expected to hit women. Female privilege? No. Women are assumed to be weak and fragile, and thus not able to survive as well as the manly men. Male positive.

Men are considered acceptable victims of assault. Our culture deems that if anyone should be assaulted, it should be a man.

Men are often scorned for acting emotionally and told to stop acting "like girls." Women rarely get the same treatment. Female privilege? No. Women are again assumed to be weak, emotional, and irrational, unlike men, who are applauded for the opposite. Male positive.

Men's emotional feelings are denied.

Women are often spared in court cases where a man, under the same circumstances, would be convicted. Female privilege? No. As above, women aren't held accountable for the things they've done, because they aren't viewed as being able to make conscious decisions to the same ability that men can. Male positive.

Men are considered more likely to be guilty, while women committing the same crimes are considered to have extenuating circumstances that excuse their behavior (women must have a reason, men are just bad).

You could flip this all around and claim it's all female positive - women's feelings are considered worthy of being expressed, women aren't considered acceptable victims of physical assault, women are considered to be more likely to be "good" than bad.

I'd argue that it is a mix - stereotypes can be positive and negative. Stereotypes are more strongly reinforced if the subject of the stereotype can see positive elements in it.

 

[mlp]

But..but there were 4 men who participated in this thread.
I feel so emasculated.

<== no more pink smileys for me.

Sorry.

But there were at least five men who participated in this thread, so at least you're in good company with the other one.

 

[Spang]

Men’s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women

Misogynists in the men’s and fathers’ rights movements have developed a set of claims about women to support their depictions of them as violent liars and manipulators of men. Some suggest that women attack men, even sexually, just as much as men attack women. Others claim that vast numbers of reported rapes of women, as much as half or even more, are fabrications designed to destroy men they don’t like or to gain the upper hand in contested custody cases. What follows is a brief look at some of these claims and what the best science really shows.

 

[mlp]

Men’s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women

This is what aggravates me about the "but women rape too", "but women physically abuse/kill their SO's" arguments, even without the manufactured *statistics* - such claims create a false equivalency on their face and minimize what continues to actually go on. Same thing when someone tries to claim that being called a "honky" a couple of time is the same as living a lifetime with the "n word" and the real consequences of growing up black in a white dominated society.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Yes. I've actually seen these arguments in use. The mind boggles.

 

[FortyTwo]

Well, unless you are a male who isn't into sports or physical work. Then your "maleness" is called into question.

Do you not see how that is female negative though? "Male" behavior is considered more valuable. It doesn't matter whether some males are scorned for acting "female," what matters is that this distinction exists at all, and that traditional masculinity is valued above traditional femininity.

What a "male positive" stereotype may look like:

Wow, with positive stereotypes like that, who needs negative ones!

You know very well what I'm talking about. Steve Urkel was not a hyper-masculinized gamer who constantly said things like "Cool story babe, make me a sammich" (a slogan I've seen on shirts at school going unpunished more times than I can count) and "Tits or gtfo."

Men are considered acceptable victims of assault. Our culture deems that if anyone should be assaulted, it should be a man.

And this stems back to the idea that women are weak and can't defend themselves, whereas men can. That's not minimizing the idea of violence against men, it's considering women unfit for any sort of physical altercation, because obviously big strong men can handle themselves when puny weak women can't.

Men's emotional feelings are denied.

Only because they are seen as weak because they are "womanly."

Men are considered more likely to be guilty, while women committing the same crimes are considered to have extenuating circumstances that excuse their behavior (women must have a reason, men are just bad).

Women are sheltered and seen as less deserving of punishment for the same crimes because they might not be able to handle it, whereas a big strong rational man knew what was coming for him.

You could flip this all around and claim it's all female positive - women's feelings are considered worthy of being expressed, women aren't considered acceptable victims of physical assault, women are considered to be more likely to be "good" than bad.

But in the end, every negative effect men experience from these scenarios stems back to a negative stereotype about women.

I'd argue that it is a mix - stereotypes can be positive and negative. Stereotypes are more strongly reinforced if the subject of the stereotype can see positive elements in it.

Once again with the sweeping statement! Of course this is correct, it would be silly to say this is wrong because it's so general. Especially considering that I already basically said it.

 

[das_nut]

Do you not see how that is female negative though? "Male" behavior is considered more valuable. It doesn't matter whether some males are scorned for acting "female," what matters is that this distinction exists at all, and that traditional masculinity is valued above traditional femininity.

That is true. Stuff like access to children, being a in-home parent, etc, are dismissed by this culture. Where stuff like wealth, violence, etc, are emphasized by this culture, at least for the male role.

Those who do not adopt the traditional male role are considered unusual at best, and often are considered to have something off about them.

You know very well what I'm talking about. Steve Urkel was not a hyper-masculinized gamer who constantly said things like "Cool story babe, make me a sammich" (a slogan I've seen on shirts at school going unpunished more times than I can count) and "Tits or gtfo."

Are gamers nerds? Some probably are. Not all. You're taking a subset of the group, and a subset of gamers at that, and considering that to be the norm.

And this stems back to the idea that women are weak and can't defend themselves, whereas men can. That's not minimizing the idea of violence against men, it's considering women unfit for any sort of physical altercation, because obviously big strong men can handle themselves when puny weak women can't.

It's pretty easy to kill someone. Perhaps we'd be better off if we realized that everyone was vulnerable. Violence turns deadly way too often.

Only because they are seen as weak because they are "womanly."

It's interesting to note that you need to buy into the whole idea that violence is strength to believe that violence against men is good.

Women are sheltered and seen as less deserving of punishment for the same crimes because they might not be able to handle it, whereas a big strong rational man knew what was coming for him.

Of course, this neglects the men who can't handle it. But the "patriarchy", for all its supposed to favor men, tends to favor a subset of men.

But in the end, every negative effect men experience from these scenarios stems back to a negative stereotype about women.

The solution is to reject such outdated and bigoted social norms.

Once again with the sweeping statement! Of course this is correct, it would be silly to say this is wrong because it's so general. Especially considering that I already basically said it.

So do you agree that traditional gender stereotypes can give advantages and disadvantages to both genders?

 

[mlp]

But the "patriarchy", for all its supposed to favor men, tends to favor a subset of men.

A popular refrain, which ignores the fact that, for every socio/economic level, women fare worse than men. IOW, while the "patriarchy" doesn't favor poor and uneducated men to the same extent as it favors rich and/or educated men, it still favors them considerably more than it favors poor and uneducated women.

A patriarchy does not need to favor all men equally over all women in order for it to be a patriarchy.

 

[Clueless Git]

Once again with the sweeping statement!

"Society favours men" is not a sweeping statement????