Why poor people make bad decisions

[nigel1]

Oh, and I'd bet that most "Coach" bags are fakes sold on street-corners. The welfare recipient in the Cadillac anecdote is as tired as the stories of garbage men who make six figures a year.

 

[das_nut]

Das' repeated question is a good one, but to me the answer is obvious. The issue of debt among the poor who are unable to manage that debt is far different from one of debt that is well-managed among the middle class. I am middle-class and am well in the black but have a considerable mortgage at around 3% and student loans under 2%. Paying them off would be foolish considering the return I get on my savings and opportunity to build capital with the money I have. That's a far cry from a poor person borrowing beyond his means out of desperation. If we're talking about financial irresponsibility, I disagree with the claim that the middle class get little criticism. When the housing market tanked and the overextended middle-class homeowners lost their houses there was a lot of collective self-pity but I think they got their share of scrutiny.

Aye, the borrowing that the middle class does and the poor do are probably due to two different causes - the poor out more frequently of desperation, the middle class more frequently out of overconsumption.

Other than the housing market crash though, do the middle class really get their purchases scrutinized? We talk of welfare folks with smartphones, but we don't really talk about how the middle class is blowing its money on smartphones. Reagan's Cadillac-driving welfare queen has entered public folklore now, but we don't really talk about how the middle class is blowing its money on new cars. We talk about how the poor may have flat screens or game consoles or other "luxuries", yet don't scrutinize the toys of the middle class.

'Tis weird.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I judge people all the time for their purchases. I'm probably the equivalent of a rabid ex-smoker but with spending. My hairdresser was complaining that she had to work extra hours and she barely sees her partner and children but then she will spend £8,000 on a holiday and £500 for a night out at the cinema, maybe if she spent less she could work less and spend more time with her family. I know she judges me too, I think she thinks we're poor because we don't have a car.

 

[Clueless Git]

There are people with lots of money who would still be considered working class, people with considerable debt who would still be considered upper class, and so on. Social class has a lot to do with who your parents are, where you live, your educational background, your job, who you married... so, it would be perfectly feasible for someone to be middle class and poor, as poor is a financial status, not a social one.

Yes. Quite so ..

The context of the post you quoted me on was middle class by income/lifestyle rather than by other considerations.

 

[Clueless Git]

We talk about how the poor may have flat screens or game consoles or other "luxuries", yet don't scrutinize the toys of the middle class.

'Tis weird.

A certain Ms. C. Dionne's new 'toy', to-whit one $72m mansion, attracted quite a lot of scrutiny recently.

That was on this very 'ere self same forum.

That makes this very 'ere self same forum a very strange place to say that scrutiny of the not poor doesn't happen.

Imho, that is. Some people may find it entirely logical.

 

[kibbleforlola]

I've been avoiding this argument, because the welfare queen myth pisses me off so, so much. To the point of shaking, it makes me so angry.

But I will say this. This morning, I had a bagel and coffee - junk food. I attend university. I am typing this out on a macbook pro. I have a smartphone.

I also don't have a job - school is a full time endeavor for me. My "paycheck" comes from the government every month, and my tuition is also covered my U.S. tax dollars, in the form of the Montgomery G.I. Bill. A system I payed into, yes, but I've gotten far, far more out than I've put in. I'm lucky that I also live with my longterm partner, who has a well paying job. But that doesn't negate the fact that most of my expenses come out of my monthly stipend. My macbook pro was a gift from the bf, and it's over five years old now, but perhaps I should sell it and get something cheaper so as not to offend taxpayers? My smartphone, too? My bf works in IT, so having a data plan is a necessity for him, so we would still be paying a bill for a smartphone, but at least I wouldn't *appear* to be wasting taxpayer dollars.

The house we just bought, too, was financed by my boyfriend using the V.A. loan. Between what we have in savings and his new job, we could have afforded to finance a home a different way, but the V.A. loan was the best deal and allowed us to get the house we were truly in love with. Perhaps we should have settled on a house that wasn't so perfect to avoid using government money.

I feel like I'm not judged because I appear middle class, indeed I consider us to be comfortably middle class. But really there isn't much separating me from a "welfare queen", except that I know I have a good support system. So judge me if you want for using taxpayer dollars, but I am not sorry.

 

[Envy]

I consider my bad choices to be a result of a lack of self-esteem and personal growth rather than my financial situation.

Those are mostly not about my personal vices though, since I have few expensive ones.

 

[Mischief]

Looking down on and judging people who are below us on the socio-economic scale has been one of the favorite pastimes of humans ever since we stopped being hunter/gatherers and started accumulating possessions. It makes us feel safe because, after all, we are smarter and make better decisions, and therefore we'll never be in the same boat.

 

[Clueless Git]

So judge me if you want for using taxpayer dollars, but I am not sorry.

I'll judge you ...

You are doing several things in conjuction which the government deems worthwhile to invest in on behalf of the taxpayers who elected them.

That's actualy rather clever.

 

[ledboots]

Kibbleforlola, thank you for your service. I don't think most people would deny you the benefits you risked your life for in protection of our families.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Kibbleforlola, thank you for your service. I don't think most people would deny you the benefits you risked your life for in protection of our families.

Thank you. But I was in communications, not in the infantry. For me, it was just a job, just like any other. And I got to see other parts of the world, also on the taxpayer's dime, to boot. Making sure I had the G.I. Bill clause in my contract makes me smart, not a hero. Not that I'm denying the extreme sacrifices other vets have made or the fact that being in the military can really change you (and not always for the better) or that it wasn't difficult or I didn't struggle - I'm just saying hooking up computers isn't exactly the mental picture many people get when they picture military service.

So why is it when I use government handouts to better myself, it's seen as a positive, but when people in dire economic conditions use government handouts to better themselves it's seen as a negative?

 

[Spang]

I bought my MacBook Pro with taxpayer dollars.

 

[das_nut]

A certain Ms. C. Dionne's new 'toy', to-whit one $72m mansion, attracted quite a lot of scrutiny recently.

That was on this very 'ere self same forum.

The post you quoted: "yet don't scrutinize the toys of the middle class".

Something's gone seriously wrong when a $72m mansion is considered middle class.

 

[Clueless Git]

The post you quoted: "yet don't scrutinize the toys of the middle class".

Something's gone seriously wrong when a $72m mansion is considered middle class.

I am entirely inclined to agree in principle.

Ms Dionne is, by both profession and birth, middle class though and her spending was scrutinised.

I would be wrong if class is defined by money, of course ..

But that would only take us back to middle class folk who no longer have middle class money not being middle class folk anymore.

 

[das_nut]

But that would only take us back to middle class folk who no longer have middle class money not being middle class folk anymore.

That's usually my definition - lower class being first quintile of income, middle class being the middle three quintiles, and upper class being the last quintile.

But we don't have class in America like we do in the UK - money makes the class, usually. Money is power.

There's probably a better definition that relies on standard deviations from the mean, but I can't be arsed to find it.

 

[Clueless Git]

Fairy 'nuff me old mucker ...

I do keep forgetting that experiences either side of the pond may vary from slightly to absolutely 'WTF.

One thing, if "money makes the class, usualy" though ...

Because the middle class tends to have those debts, in addition to other debts.
They also tend to go deeply in debt for housing (frequently becoming "house poor") and education (instead of taking steps to reduce their educational costs). It seems there's a lot to criticize about how the middle class lives their lives, isn't there?

Can we extend this to net worth? After all, if we're going to judge "poor" people, many of which don't have house or student loan debt, for buying something nice, shouldn't we also judge the person with $60k in student loans and $220k left on the house? Why should they buy nice things - they are deeper in debt than the poor person!

Which non-financial, and thus unusual, definition of middle class were you actualy using there??

 

[das_nut]

Which non-financial, and thus unusual, definition of middle class were you actualy using there??

Income.

We suck at savings - if we were going off net worth, a lot of the "middle class" here would be worse off than poor people.

 

[nigel1]

Looking down on and judging people who are below us on the socio-economic scale has been one of the favorite pastimes of humans ever since we stopped being hunter/gatherers and started accumulating possessions. It makes us feel safe because, after all, we are smarter and make better decisions, and therefore we'll never be in the same boat.

Hunter/Gatherers had status and wealth for sure. Their stuff just wasn't as heavy.

For the record, I judge Kibbleforlola and Spang for having macbook pros, regardless of their income and who paid for them.

 

[Clueless Git]

Income.

We suck at savings - if we were going off net worth, a lot of the "middle class" here would be worse off than poor people.

So, the term 'poor' does include both low income (working class) poor and high income (middle class) poor then?

Either that or it must be possible for a middle class person to have lower net worth than a working class person without actualy being 'poorer' than them?

 

[Clueless Git]

Hunter/Gatherers had status and wealth for sure. Their stuff just wasn't as heavy.

Ipads instead of laptops, perhaps?