Developing a thick skin

[Muggle]

This thread is hurting my brain.

There are posts which are being passive aggressive about passive aggressiveness.



I suppose I should clarify before I get eaten. The posts appear to me as being that. Not saying that the posters are being passive aggressive about passive aggressiveness just that it is the way their posts sound to me. Which should really be obvious to anybody: regardless of what you thought you were typing, other people may read it differently. If you're not willing to clarify your meaning if you believe they have misunderstood what you're saying (and clarify it properly, not just repeat the same thing as it obviously isn't working) then don't get upset if you think people are misconstruing what you've said.

 

[mlp]

Was the question "am I proud of myself?" (I'm not going to bother to go back and double check, but I'm pretty sure that was it).

The answer is "yes". Yes I'm pretty proud of myself. I don't generally engage in self loathing activities, or activities that would later make me loathe myself.

And yes, I do censor myself. For instance, I thought of at least ten pithy punches I could have included in this post, but I refrained.

The question I meant was whether you truly believe that people have no control over their reactions. (I would assume that if you think you're clever for doing/saying something, you would also be proud of it.)

 

[Ansciess]

I personally don't think anyone needs to get the advice of growing thicker skin or anything else. I think the admins just need to decide what kind of a forum they want to have, if there is going to be a functional debate forum, and if so, lay down some enforceable expectations and rules.

 

[Spang]

the topic in which pretty much all of this has come up is so-called "women's issues," pretty exclusively with female participants. So your use of the word "bothersome" seems to be taking the side of one female against another on a "woman's issue." If you support one group, I guess I can accuse you of being sexist or insensitive towards the other, because who are you, a man, to have an opinion on a woman's issue against other women?

I hadn't given my opinion on makeup, if that's what we're talking about. I think a person, regardless of gender, should wear makeup if they want, or not wear makeup if they want, and allowed to be successful with or without it.

If you're calling my opinion "bothersome" that got that accusation, then own it please.

I don't think I have an opinion of any of your specific opinions.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Well, I think that's a complex question, and a question that really can't be answered with a quick forum post. I think that people will illicit reactions in us, but we - to some degree and some more than others - have some control over how we let those reactions influence our response.

For example, somebody may say something that makes me mad - they're is no stopping that. But I can (sometimes) choose whether or not I let others *see* that I'm angry. And sometimes anger can be constructive, hiding your anger for the sake of keeping the piece may just make me a push over or encourage bullying behavior. And sometimes even those people who are most in control get pushed too far and then they snap - and I think that's a valid response, as well.

However, when I see people telling other people that they just need to toughen up and not take things personally, it's usually a signifier that the person doing the telling wants to make racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever comments and not be called out on it by those affected by those comments. "This is just my opinion! You need to learn how to not be so sensitive!" Gross.

 

[Ansciess]

I don't think I have an opinion on any of your specific opinions.

I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread between content and delivery of the message.

Of course people can be asked to be more productive when delivering their message on a internet forum, even if it is a message that somehow relates to a class issue. Being offended is not a license for all behavior.

 

[mlp]

Well, I think that's a complex question, and a question that really can't be answered with a quick forum post. I think that people will illicit reactions in us, but we - to some degree and some more than others - have some control over how we let those reactions influence our response.

For example, somebody may say something that makes me mad - they're is no stopping that. But I can (sometimes) choose whether or not I let others *see* that I'm angry. And sometimes anger can be constructive, hiding your anger for the sake of keeping the piece may just make me a push over or encourage bullying behavior. And sometimes even those people who are most in control get pushed too far and then they snap - and I think that's a valid response, as well.

However, when I see people telling other people that they just need to toughen up and not take things personally, it's usually a signifier that the person doing the telling wants to make racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever comments and not be called out on it by those affected by those comments. "This is just my opinion! You need to learn how to not be so sensitive!" Gross.

Thanks for the clarification. For the most part, I agree.

 

[Freesia]

I don't think the problem is with this thread, which I think was started to address the divisiveness that has cropped up in so many threads. IOW, the problems already existed - the point of this thread was to address them rather than continuing to percolate everywhere.

I disagree with that. i have had a really busy week doing taxes and havent written much in the makeup thread, except about Lush products. But this thread topic still got my back up when I saw it last night, so I voiced my opinion on it and went to bed thinking that perhaps I was the only one who was annoyed by the thread. And when I got up I saw that I was not the only one.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I just see this thread topic in general as having been very divisive and has got so many backs up. Perhaps that was not Beancounter's intention when he started the thread, but that is how it has come across to quite a few people. It is a very personal thing, emotions, how really do people expect people to react to being given this kind of advice?

No, it wasn't. But I agree with mlp's assessment of the situation. And I did not expect this to go over well. No one likes to be told that their behavior leaves something to be desired. There's no nice way to tell someone they need to think about how their actions impact others. It's rare to find someone who is able to admit when they are wrong and accept that they need to change, and all too easy to try to deflect their own role by accusing other people of the very things of which they themselves are guilty. I think it's pretty clear who's doing that and who isn't.

A person doesn't have to be perfect in order to offer a critique of someone's behavior, all they need is to be willing to stand up to the same critique. I think I have shown myself to be more than willing, something I can't say of any of the people doing their best to continue to hurl insults in my direction.

 

[Freesia]

I personally don't think anyone needs to get the advice of growing thicker skin or anything else.

That part I can agree with.

 

[ledboots]

I think there's a lot of that going on. This whole thread is being deliberately twisted to make it look you are trying to tell other people what they should think and feel, when all it is is a set of alternative ways to react to something that hurts your feelings or offends you.

I was the one who came in here and said that was all very well and good, but that there are certain ways of reacting to others that are no longer going to be accepted here. None of the people engaging in them want to stand up and admit it, so I guess they are creating another problem where none exists, ie "quit telling us what to do".

Sorry kids, but on forums, just like in real life, there are codes of conduct you are required to abide by if you want to enjoy the privilege of belonging to the community. If reigning in your sarcasm, passive aggression, and need to insult, offend, or otherwise make personal attacks when you can't actually win the argument you've gotten yourself into is completely out of your control, you can certainly find yourself some free software and make your own forum where you can write your own rules and abuse any poor fool who happens upon it and has the bad luck to express an opinion of which you do not approve.

Ok, so I can call people older than myself "kids" and THAT is acceptable by a mod in a thread where she is instructing us on new forum rules? Really?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Also, to clarify further, it's easier (for me, personally) to hide my anger here, on the internet. In real life, if someone upsets me, no amount of deep breathing is going to stop me from shaking.

 

[Freesia]

A person doesn't have to be perfect in order to offer a critique of someone's behavior, .

Beancounter may have had the best of intentions, but nobody asked him to make a critique of our behaviour.

Anyway Im going shopping and out for sushi.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Ok, so I can call people older than myself "kids" and THAT is acceptable by a mod in a thread where she is instructing us on new forum rules? Really?

Are you interpreting that as an insult then?

 

[Ansciess]

Ok, so I can call people older than myself "kids" and THAT is acceptable by a mod in a thread where she is instructing us on new forum rules? Really?

I think taking offense at every word is not helping right now. Are you really that offended? I think it was a casual usage. Maybe not the most careful use of language, but colloquial.

If you're really offended, maybe there's another way to say it that doesn't sound like you're fighting?

I think BC made this thread to try to be helpful - rather than laying down new rules it was to try to nudge us to think about how we all can react differently to triggering posts. Maybe it isn't the thread that I would have made, but I see his intentions.

It seems like sometimes people (probably sometimes me too) are reading too much into things, taking offense where none was meant, and instead of gently correcting or discussing, amplifying the discord...

 

[mlp]

Ok, so I can call people older than myself "kids" and THAT is acceptable by a mod in a thread where she is instructing us on new forum rules? Really?

Are you equally offended by someone addressing a group as "guys"? I ask because I've addressed groups of collegues (of assorted ages and sexes) both as "kids" and as "guys."

Beancounter may have had the best of intentions, but nobody asked him to make a critique of our behaviour.

Beancounter is the Steward of the debate forum, and as such, the manner in which discussions are conducted in here are his responsibility. I think he was just trying to address how we all react to each other, which isn't always in very productive ways.

 

[Muggle]

No, it wasn't. But I agree with mlp's assessment of the situation. And I did not expect this to go over well. No one likes to be told that their behavior leaves something to be desired. There's no nice way to tell someone they need to think about how their actions impact others. It's rare to find someone who is able to admit when they are wrong and accept that they need to change, and all too easy to try to deflect their own role by accusing other people of the very things of which they themselves are guilty. I think it's pretty clear who's doing that and who isn't.

Actually, it's not clear to me. Could you please clarify which posters you think are acting one way and which posters you think are acting the other?

 

[beancounter]

W
However, when I see people telling other people that they just need to toughen up and not take things personally, it's usually a signifier that the person doing the telling wants to make racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever comments and not be called out on it by those affected by those comments. "This is just my opinion! You need to learn how to not be so sensitive!" Gross.

So the whole purpose of this thread was just to give myself a gateway to saying racist/sexist/bigoted things?

 

[Pickle Juice]

Beancounter may have had the best of intentions, but nobody asked him to make a critique of our behaviour.

Anyway Im going shopping and out for sushi.

I wasn't referring to his critique, but mine. Regardless of that, yes, we have been asked to deal with an obvious problem, by people who feel too alienated to handle it on their own. That's one of the things mods have to do when people can't be civil to one another.

Or does everyone think we're in this for the fun of it?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Are you equally offended by someone addressing a group as "guys"? I ask because I've addressed groups of collegues (of assorted ages and sexes) both as "kids" and as "guys."

I just spent most of the morning writing about language, and why it matters, and specifically the usage of "guys" as a gender-neutral/gender default term. Interesting coincidence.