Developing a thick skin

[Spang]

But the point is, I'm not offended by what you said....

I didn't think you were offended. I mean, It'd be kind of hypocritical of you if you were. But my response wasn't designed to hush debate, rather to prove a point. I think you can have thick skin and be offended at the same time, or not have thick skin and not be offended.

Like Jeremy Statton, I have a lot of privilege. I'm white, I'm straight, I'm male, and I live in a developed country. You can call me a cracker if you want, but it's not going to offend me, because I live in a white-supremacist society. You can call me a dick or an ******* if you want, but it's not going to offend me, because I live in a patriarchy. You can call me a breeder if you want, but it's not going to offend me, because I live in a heterosexist society. It would be absurd of me to lecture women, people of color and LGBT people on how not to be offended.

 

[mlp]

How to choose not to be offended

"Offense seems to be an obligation. A natural response to someone else. When we see things that we do not like, we feel we have no choice but to become upset. And express it adamantly.
We view our reponse as outside of our hands. We are only reacting to others.
Like most thing, however, offense is really an issue of the self. It has nothing to do with the person who is offending you and everything to do with you."

http://www.jeremystatton.com/offense#comments

Agreed.

That probably means that I have a thick skin.

I'm not offended when someone calls me anti-woman, anti-gay, etc. (and I think that I was included as a target of many of those comments) because I know what my thinking is, because I am pretty much constantly looking at my own attitudes, decisions, etc. To me, that's part of a well-lived life - to be honest within oneself, to have internal, personal integrity, and scrutiny of oneself and one's own thinking is critical to that process.

That's also the value of debates, for me - being challenged is sometimes/often necessary in order to see the chinks/flaws in my own thinking. There are three individuals whom I have encountered on various veg*n boards who have been most valuable to me in that way*, and at one or more times I have butted heads with them quite severely, but I have always respected their intellectual integrity as well as their ethical integrity, and I continue to do so, even though (and probably because) we don't agree on everything. *Sevenseas, Ansciess and PickleJuice.

As I said above, I'm not personally offended by the slinging around of the anti-woman, anti-gay,*****-shaming, etc. comments. I do find it irritating when someone comes into a thread merely to say that rather than to engage in an actual discussion, because the sole apparent purpose is to shut down the discussion, to "shame" and prevent people from even discussing the topic. It's much like posting in an abortion discussion thread "baby killers!" or "self righteous Bible thumpers!" and then beating a hasty retreat, secure in the knowledge that one has established one's own moral high ground and advanced thinking.

 

[Freesia]

I miss Sevenseas.

 

[kibbleforlola]

I never said that how someone feels is or isn't important.
All I'm saying is that people can make a conscious choice how they feel/react to what someone else is saying.

Nope.

 

[mlp]

I just looked at the makeup thread. It has descended into a pit of passive aggressive sludge. And I must say that while I'm not offended by passive aggressiveness, I find it on cowardly, meanspirited and just plain nasty. I don't respect myself when I stoop to it, and I'm disappointed in how many members here seem to be reveling in it.

 

[kibbleforlola]

I just looked at the makeup thread. It has descended into a pit of passive aggressive sludge. And I must say that while I'm not offended by passive aggressiveness, I find it on cowardly, meanspirited and just plain nasty. I don't respect myself when I stoop to it, and I'm disappointed in how many members here seem to be reveling in it.

Oh stop it, MLP, I'm blushing.

 

[mlp]

Nope.

If you're saying that people can't control their reactions, then I disagree. It's difficult, but it's something we all learn to do as part of growing up, otherwise we would all still be acting like two year old toddlers.

 

[mlp]

Oh stop it, MLP, I'm blushing.

Are you actually proud of yourself? Do you actually think you're being clever?

 

[mlp]

I grew up with a passive aggressive mother, and I have worked with and lived in close proximity with a number of consistently passive aggressive people.

The one thing all of them have had in common is an inability to take responsibility for themselves, to admit any fault. Ultimately, passive aggressiveness is a sign of weakness of character and of spirit.

ETA: As I said before, passive aggressiveness is a trait that I despise in myself, and it's one I have worked hard, all my life long, to curb. On VB, I consciously used it at times to make a point, because the rules limited direct talk, but the fact that it was in many cases the only way available to express something without infringing on the rules was one of the reasons I left. The fact that we can speak much more directly on VV is something that I have valued about this board.

ETA: My mother had courage in many ways, but she never had the courage to take resposibility for her own actions and decisions. Everything bad that happened, anything that she did that she later regretted, was always someone else's fault. The other passive aggressive individuals I've known have all had that in common. I don't think it's possible to grow as an individual with that mindset.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Agreed.

That probably means that I have a thick skin.

I'm not offended when someone calls me anti-woman, anti-gay, etc. (and I think that I was included as a target of many of those comments) because I know what my thinking is, because I am pretty much constantly looking at my own attitudes, decisions, etc. To me, that's part of a well-lived life - to be honest within oneself, to have internal, personal integrity, and scrutiny of oneself and one's own thinking is critical to that process.

That's also the value of debates, for me - being challenged is sometimes/often necessary in order to see the chinks/flaws in my own thinking. There are three individuals whom I have encountered on various veg*n boards who have been most valuable to me in that way*, and at one or more times I have butted heads with them quite severely, but I have always respected their intellectual integrity as well as their ethical integrity, and I continue to do so, even though (and probably because) we don't agree on everything. *Sevenseas, Ansciess and PickleJuice.

As I said above, I'm not personally offended by the slinging around of the anti-woman, anti-gay,*****-shaming, etc. comments. I do find it irritating when someone comes into a thread merely to say that rather than to engage in an actual discussion, because the sole apparent purpose is to shut down the discussion, to "shame" and prevent people from even discussing the topic. It's much like posting in an abortion discussion thread "baby killers!" or "self righteous Bible thumpers!" and then beating a hasty retreat, secure in the knowledge that one has established one's own moral high ground and advanced thinking.

I agree completely, and everything you say here I could apply to myself. And thank you.

I am not really an easy person to offend either. I'm still pretty good at knowing when someone is trying to be offensive, even if I don't choose to take offense. Learning not to take offense is a valuable tool for anyone's emotional well-being, but I think that what we need here is not necessarily for people who are sensitive to toughen up, but for people to find better, less hurtful ways to let someone know that they have found something offensive or upsetting. Lashing out at someone serves no purpose but a selfish one, does nothing to resolve the problem, and doesn't make the person look any better than the one they are lashing out against, even if it is justified. The sad thing is, I'd say that 99% of the time, on here anyway, it isn't even justified.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I grew up with a passive aggressive mother, and I have worked with and lived in close proximity with a number of consistently passive aggressive people.

The one thing all of them have had in common is an inability to take responsibility for themselves, to admit any fault...

Totally agree with this too.

 

[beancounter]

Nope.

So you believe that how you react to things is completely outside your control?

 

[beancounter]

I miss Sevenseas.

How does this thread remind you of seven seas?

 

[mlp]

How does this thread remind you of seven seas?

I mentioned Sevenseas in my post, and I think Freesia was responding to that.


However, now that it is obvious that you did not read my post, I am totally offended.

 

[ledboots]

Agreed.

That probably means that I have a thick skin.

I'm not offended when someone calls me anti-woman, anti-gay, etc. (and I think that I was included as a target of many of those comments) because I know what my thinking is, because I am pretty much constantly looking at my own attitudes, decisions, etc. To me, that's part of a well-lived life - to be honest within oneself, to have internal, personal integrity, and scrutiny of oneself and one's own thinking is critical to that process.

That's also the value of debates, for me - being challenged is sometimes/often necessary in order to see the chinks/flaws in my own thinking. There are three individuals whom I have encountered on various veg*n boards who have been most valuable to me in that way*, and at one or more times I have butted heads with them quite severely, but I have always respected their intellectual integrity as well as their ethical integrity, and I continue to do so, even though (and probably because) we don't agree on everything. *Sevenseas, Ansciess and PickleJuice.

As I said above, I'm not personally offended by the slinging around of the anti-woman, anti-gay,*****-shaming, etc. comments. I do find it irritating when someone comes into a thread merely to say that rather than to engage in an actual discussion, because the sole apparent purpose is to shut down the discussion, to "shame" and prevent people from even discussing the topic. It's much like posting in an abortion discussion thread "baby killers!" or "self righteous Bible thumpers!" and then beating a hasty retreat, secure in the knowledge that one has established one's own moral high ground and advanced thinking.

People are offended by different things. For some, it might be name-calling, for another passive aggression. Neither feeling is right or wrong; both are legitimate.

 

[mlp]

People are offended by different things. For some, it might be name-calling, for another passive aggression. Neither feeling is right or wrong; both are legitimate.

I'm not offended by passive aggressiveness - I just don't think well of people who resort to it, for the reasons I stated. The same thing with name calling, although in the case of name calling, I get upset on behalf of others who are subjected to it. I've been called a number of different names , but never by anyone for whose opinion of me I had any respect (the very limited number of people whose opinion of me that I care about would never resort to that). In fact, the first time I was called a ****ing ***** (at least it was the first time that i was aware of being called that) is still one of my fondest memories, because of the circumstances in which it was said.

And I'm not arguing or suggesting that others should or should not be offended by either name calling or passive aggressiveness - that's up to them.

 

[Ansciess]

Of course people can control their reactions, and often that's done by looking at one's own interpretations. When I came to this board I had a disagreement with someone and they told me that I should just leave the board. It didn't feel great, but I wasn't offended by it. Probably because I don't take it personally. I interpret it as that person's issue and inability to handle conflict, not mine.

My thought is that this thread is about trying to gently nudge those of us who have fighting styles that tend not to be productive to monitor our own reactions and thus behavior. I can see just from this thread that it won't work. I think it has to be dealt with at the administrative level of "what kind of board do we want to have" and then figure out what is acceptable and "actionable" behavior. Name-calling and accusations don't lead anywhere good, certainly they don't lead to a fruitful discussion. Passive aggressive behavior doesn't lead to decent debates, although that might be harder to moderate, even if it's often not difficult to spot.

 

[Spang]

People generally don't like being told what to do.

 

[mlp]

My thought is that this thread is about trying to gently nudge those of us who have fighting styles that tend not to be productive to monitor our own reactions and thus behavior.

Agreed, and I know I have some work to do in this regard.

 

[mlp]

People generally don't like being told what to do.

Could you elaborate? Are you talking about this thread or other discussions on the board?