Many vegans are out of touch from reality

[Roy R]

So may I suggest you take a more process oriented approach and not so much a results oriented approach. It's easier for everyone. So as long as someone is trying to cut down on meat because of the animals then he is vegan,

Problem is Lou - the Original Poster isn't doing it for the animals - he was honest enough to say that and I commend him for it. He is using the wrong terminology that's all, maybe he could say he is aiming to be plant based.

I do agree with you though as for some people it's hard to go cold turkey - When I ended up going vegan it was only because one thing ended up leading to another and I couldn't believe what I was seeing at each stage. At first i went organic because I stupidly thought at least the animals had a good life but quickly saw the idiocy of that, then fish and had the notion of "fish eat fish" so fair game - then saw a documentary on lobster fishing, then eggs until I saw what they did to male chicks and finally honey when I found out they de wing the queen and also set the hives alight during winter and substitute their honey with sugar water.

Education is the most important thing and pictures/videos paint a thousand words but some people just don't want to know and some don't even care.

I remember my girlfriend at the time giving me evil stares because I turned the laptop towards her to show her what was going on. I should have dumped her there and then.

There is absolutely no excuse to carry on eating animal products in this day and age - or buying to wear them. Cheese unfortunately is addictive because of the casomorphine I really don't know how they will solve that for people with lower will power.

I even found it hard to call myself a vegan as of a few weeks ago when my cat passed away as it was torture buying animals for him to eat - it really broke my heart. He didn't eat the vegan stuff I got him. If I ever rescue another animal I would have to return to my old ways unless they bring something out that they would eat - dogs are a bit easier to cater for I think - I don't know.

 

[Lou]

I even found it hard to call myself a vegan as of a few weeks ago when my cat passed away as it was torture buying animals for him to eat -

We are really not disagreeing, but it's stuff like that that makes me convinced in the process oriented approach. For me it's all out intent - not percentages.

 

[Roy R]

The official VS definition that everybody is so fond of quoting says "seeks to exclude" not "excludes," so it is a process not an absolute.

seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable

 

[Sax]

There is much danger in a "one size fits all" approach to human psychology!!!

No one's advocating that. Just offering my own experience as a data point.

Compromising on principles can actually be less effective so think twice.

 

[Roy R]

I've just re-read the OP and he doesn't say he's going vegan - only inferred it (I think). Playing devils advocate here. Has this been a massive wind up? lol.

Still - it's got some discussion going.

 

[KLS52]

I've just re-read the OP and he doesn't say he's going vegan - only inferred it (I think). Playing devils advocate here. Has this been a massive wind up? lol.

Still - it's got some discussion going.

I think so lol. But discussion is always good.

 

[KLS52]

I feel like we're not all on the same page. I'm not saying anyone has to go cold turkey. Going slow is fine. Transitioning is fine. Not wanting to go all out and being a flexitarian is fine. But don't call yourself a vegan. Being vegan should mean something. And I'm not talking about the militant ones who are so far out there and judgmental. Speaking from at least a dietary point, Vegans don't eat meat, eggs or dairy. Idk...maybe it's harsh but it's how I feel/my opinion.

 

[Roy R]

I feel like we're not all on the same page. I'm not saying anyone has to go cold turkey. Going slow is fine. Transitioning is fine. Not wanting to go all out and being a flexitarian is fine. But don't call yourself a vegan. Being vegan should mean something. And I'm not talking about the militant ones who are so far out there and judgmental. Speaking from at least a dietary point, Vegans don't eat meat, eggs or dairy. Idk...maybe it's harsh but it's how I feel/my opinion.

Yeah agree with that, I've just triple checked now and his "Lifestyle" status says vegan so - I shouldn't have been playing devils advocate in my last post. I think perhaps call ones self vegan when 'you' cut it all out for your own lifestyle otherwise it makes vegans look bad.

 

[ewomack]

I've stopped using the labels "vegan" or even "vegetarian" because I've found that I'm instantly judged by everyone, vegan or not, the moment I say one of those words. I used to say "I'm 90% vegan" and got shamed. Then I tried "I'm an aspiring vegan" and still got shamed. This happened even in conversations with other vegans and vegetarians. They offered no support, only reasons why I was falling short and should go even further. Had I not really wanted to cut down on meat for my own personal reasons, I would have probably given up, I got so sick of it. Nothing was good enough. Saying "vegan" or "vegetarian" to meat eaters was even worse, but not always. These words have become super loaded and can even trigger instant judgements in some people. I could see people's eyes and facial expressions alter the moment I said one of those words. I have now settled on "I don't eat a lot of meat." That has so far worked fine in any company. Vegans don't feel like I'm violating their word and meat eaters just assume I have dietary restrictions. It's worked pretty well. I plan on never describing myself as "vegan" or "vegetarian" in any form ever again. But I continue to maintain my extremely low meat diet. By "extremely" I mean eating meat a few times a year. There are just times that I can't avoid it without causing a massive fuss in other parts of my life. If the terms "vegan" or "vegetarian" can't accommodate even very slight variations, then I don't feel any need to identify with them or use them. Nonetheless, I am still hoping and planning on meeting most people's ideas and standards of "vegan," but when I do I still won't use that term to describe myself.

 

[Brian W]

I've stopped using the labels "vegan" or even "vegetarian" because I've found that I'm instantly judged by everyone, vegan or not, the moment I say one of those words. I used to say "I'm 90% vegan" and got shamed. Then I tried "I'm an aspiring vegan" and still got shamed. This happened even in conversations with other vegans and vegetarians. They offered no support, only reasons why I was falling short and should go even further. Had I not really wanted to cut down on meat for my own personal reasons, I would have probably given up, I got so sick of it. Nothing was good enough. Saying "vegan" or "vegetarian" to meat eaters was even worse, but not always. These words have become super loaded and can even trigger instant judgements in some people. I could see people's eyes and facial expressions alter the moment I said one of those words. I have now settled on "I don't eat a lot of meat." That has so far worked fine in any company. Vegans don't feel like I'm violating their word and meat eaters just assume I have dietary restrictions. It's worked pretty well. I plan on never describing myself as "vegan" or "vegetarian" in any form ever again. But I continue to maintain my extremely low meat diet. By "extremely" I mean eating meat a few times a year. There are just times that I can't avoid it without causing a massive fuss in other parts of my life. If the terms "vegan" or "vegetarian" can't accommodate even very slight variations, then I don't feel any need to identify with them or use them. Nonetheless, I am still hoping and planning on meeting most people's ideas and standards of "vegan," but when I do I still won't use that term to describe myself.

That's why I will never describe myself as vegan either. I'm totally with you!

 

[Lou]

I've stopped using the labels "vegan" or even "vegetarian" because I've found that I'm instantly judged by everyone, vegan or not, the moment I say one of those words. I used to say "I'm 90% vegan" and got shamed. Then I tried "I'm an aspiring vegan" and still got shamed. This happened even in conversations with other vegans and vegetarians. They offered no support, only reasons why I was falling short and should go even further. Had I not really wanted to cut down on meat for my own personal reasons, I would have probably given up, I got so sick of it. Nothing was good enough. Saying "vegan" or "vegetarian" to meat eaters was even worse, but not always. These words have become super loaded and can even trigger instant judgements in some people. I could see people's eyes and facial expressions alter the moment I said one of those words. I have now settled on "I don't eat a lot of meat." That has so far worked fine in any company. Vegans don't feel like I'm violating their word and meat eaters just assume I have dietary restrictions. It's worked pretty well. I plan on never describing myself as "vegan" or "vegetarian" in any form ever again. But I continue to maintain my extremely low meat diet. By "extremely" I mean eating meat a few times a year. There are just times that I can't avoid it without causing a massive fuss in other parts of my life. If the terms "vegan" or "vegetarian" can't accommodate even very slight variations, then I don't feel any need to identify with them or use them. Nonetheless, I am still hoping and planning on meeting most people's ideas and standards of "vegan," but when I do I still won't use that term to describe myself.

I find this sort of sad

 

[silva]

I've stopped using the labels "vegan" or even "vegetarian" because I've found that I'm instantly judged by everyone, vegan or not, the moment I say one of those words. I used to say "I'm 90% vegan" and got shamed. Then I tried "I'm an aspiring vegan" and still got shamed. This happened even in conversations with other vegans and vegetarians. They offered no support, only reasons why I was falling short and should go even further. Had I not really wanted to cut down on meat for my own personal reasons, I would have probably given up, I got so sick of it. Nothing was good enough. Saying "vegan" or "vegetarian" to meat eaters was even worse, but not always. These words have become super loaded and can even trigger instant judgements in some people. I could see people's eyes and facial expressions alter the moment I said one of those words. I have now settled on "I don't eat a lot of meat." That has so far worked fine in any company. Vegans don't feel like I'm violating their word and meat eaters just assume I have dietary restrictions. It's worked pretty well. I plan on never describing myself as "vegan" or "vegetarian" in any form ever again. But I continue to maintain my extremely low meat diet. By "extremely" I mean eating meat a few times a year. There are just times that I can't avoid it without causing a massive fuss in other parts of my life. If the terms "vegan" or "vegetarian" can't accommodate even very slight variations, then I don't feel any need to identify with them or use them. Nonetheless, I am still hoping and planning on meeting most people's ideas and standards of "vegan," but when I do I still won't use that term to describe myself.

I am seriously not understanding the desire for people to identify as something they're not--then being put off when called out. It's not that it isn't wonderful when people reduce the amount of animal products, but it doesn't make you vegan. It's like if I sometimes break out in a job when on a walk doesn't mean I should say I'm a runner, if I buy a tomato plant I don't say I'm a gardener.
How can anyone eat meat a few times a year without being sick? I have accidentally bit into chicken when it was supposed to be all veg and threw up my mouth before I knew what it was.

I just can't understand why people get so judgemental about the word vegan meaning to avoid animal products. If vegan doesn't mean that, then what does? It shouldn't have a descriptor?

If someone tells you they're an orthodox Jew, but you know they just had a ham sandwich at lunch do you not wonder why they would identify as that?

You're right in saying 'mostly veg", there is nothing wrong with that, and you don't need to excuse yourself, or make it a big deal

 

[silva]

I find this sort of sad

Why? Why do people want to be known as vegan if they're not? It seems more and more like it gives them reason to bash vegans when they're told they shouldn't be eating (eggs, honey, gelatin, carmine, whey.....meat) if they're vegan
Is being vegan suddenly so revered?

 

[Lou]

That's why I will never describe myself as vegan either. I'm totally with you!

very sad.

Why? Why do people want to be known as vegan if they're not? It seems more and more like it gives them reason to bash vegans when they're told they shouldn't be eating (eggs, honey, gelatin, carmine, whey.....meat) if they're vegan
Is being vegan suddenly so revered?

I think we need "Proud Vegans"

 

[silva]

very sad.

I think we need "Proud Vegans"

What?

 

[ewomack]

I am seriously not understanding the desire for people to identify as something they're not--then being put off when called out. It's not that it isn't wonderful when people reduce the amount of animal products, but it doesn't make you vegan. It's like if I sometimes break out in a job when on a walk doesn't mean I should say I'm a runner, if I buy a tomato plant I don't say I'm a gardener.
How can anyone eat meat a few times a year without being sick? I have accidentally bit into chicken when it was supposed to be all veg and threw up my mouth before I knew what it was.

I just can't understand why people get so judgemental about the word vegan meaning to avoid animal products. If vegan doesn't mean that, then what does? It shouldn't have a descriptor?

If someone tells you they're an orthodox Jew, but you know they just had a ham sandwich at lunch do you not wonder why they would identify as that?

You're right in saying 'mostly veg", there is nothing wrong with that, and you don't need to excuse yourself, or make it a big deal

I don't think you understand, and I think you're overreacting, but I'll refrain from further comment.

 

[ewomack]

I find this sort of sad

I do too. I have been truly vegan at certain points of my life, but I couldn't sustain it 100% for reasons that I won't go into. I try my best to get as close to 100% as I can (and I do get really close), but I don't think I ever will. Not good enough!! Some other vegans, not all, then considered me some sort of outcast or sinner and it became intolerable to be around them. They wouldn't allow me even the slightest slip. The people who only think "all or nothing" don't do the "movement" any service at all. They turn people away. You have to have some tolerance for flexibility to get "followers" into your camp. People can ultimately choose the pragmatic route or the ideological route. The ideological route, i.e., the "hardliners," will likely alienate people and keep the numbers low. So, as I said, I would rather avoid the label completely, even if I do manage to become 100% vegan again. I now only use the word "vegan" to refer to food, never to myself or other people. I will never call myself even a "partial vegan" again, it has only invited nastiness from all sides.

 

[Sax]

How is it that us happy vegans so rarely meet other vegans yet everyone else seems to know a hundred vegans who are jerks?

 

[GreenHugeBig]

I was on a business trip recently with three colleagues: John, Sarah, and Mark. We were all staying in the same hotel and had been working together for several weeks. One evening, we decided to go out for dinner at a steakhouse. I knew it was going to be difficult for me as a vegan, but I didn't want to be left out of the group.

When we arrived at the restaurant, the first thing I noticed was the overwhelming smell of meat. It was nauseating, but I tried to keep it together. We were seated at a table and I immediately looked for something vegan on the menu. There was one dish I could order, but I wasn't thrilled about it. John noticed me looking at the menu and said, "What's wrong with you? Are you one of those vegan freaks?"

I was taken aback by his tone and his use of the word "freaks". I calmly explained to him that I choose to eat a plant-based diet for ethical reasons. Sarah chimed in, "Oh, so you think you're better than us because you don't eat meat?" I was starting to feel uncomfortable, but I didn't want to cause a scene.

Mark then made a joke about cows that made me cringe. I explained to him that I didn't appreciate jokes about animals being killed for food. He then made an even worse joke about rape and cows, which was completely unacceptable. I told him that it was not funny and that he needed to stop.

The rest of the meal was tense, and I couldn't wait to leave. As we were getting ready to go, John mentioned the cartoon, "Popeye the Sailor". I didn't think much of it until he made a comment about how Popeye was always eating spinach and how I should try it so I could be strong like him.

That was the last straw. I stood up and told him that I had had enough. I explained that being vegan was a personal choice and that I didn't appreciate the constant jokes and comments. I also mentioned that I didn't appreciate being made to feel like an outsider in the group.

John and Sarah both apologized, but Mark didn't seem to understand why I was upset. He said that he was just joking and that I needed to lighten up. I told him that making jokes about rape and animals being killed was never okay, and that he needed to educate himself about veganism and the reasons behind it.

In the end, we all agreed to move past it and try to be more respectful of each other's dietary choices. However, the experience left a bad taste in my mouth, and I made sure to do my research before agreeing to eat out with the group again.

 

[Grinning Hippos]

Maybe we can be more acceptant of others. If someone wants to use the word vegan, they should use it, they are only promoting a kinder lifestyle and they want to be part of a community. I think being vegan is being kinder, so let's do that with everyone, animals and people included. I would appreciate any person that cuts back on animal products and they could call themselves however they want as long as they do it