Many vegans are out of touch from reality

[silva]

Yeah. I've read his book, a while ago now. I broadly agree with his tack, though I don't think he extends this thinking into other areas of human/animal interactions. But I have forgotten most of his argument. I think I went to look at his website and FB page a little while back and it doesn't get much activity so I don't know how much this has taken off.

I skimmed this current thread again and it's interesting that there remains two broad points of view. 1. A vegan doesn't eat *some* meat and you cannot be a vegan unless you go all the way and 2. We shouldn't be so judgmental about people who are on the way/transitioning/part time. I lean to the latter.

I still believe that veganism isn't even a lifestyle, it's simply everyday ethics extended to include other species whenever we can. And I observe that viewed like that, no-one can make any choice to act in ways that respects other animals and not be consistent with veganism. So when a farmer undertakes to maximise welfare for his livestock or someone supports new laws that prevent animal use in circuses etc, these people are being consistent with veganism as an ethical concept. So the way I see it, most people are already onside, all that is in question is the extent they are willing to go. And right there is ample room for furthering this idea by educating, encouraging, supporting and leading by example. The idea that people should be judged and shamed for not doing enough should be rejected, as should the idea that someone needs to "go vegan". More can be achieved with encouragement rather than judgement. And being open to the idea that people may always eat meat or use animals.

I propose the idea that we don't particularly need people to be vegans but rather we seek broader social acceptance of the idea that we should act more justly towards other species, and then leave it up to people to do what they feel comfortable with. @Lou pointed out the great progress recently in regard to justice for other species, but I remain sceptical this came about because of "veganism" as popularly understood. It most likely happened because those advocating justice managed to convince enough of the community. I would reserve the label "vegan" for those who both seek to behave justly towards other species AND advocate in favour. Everyone else just is everyone else.

Did I share that idea here before? I can't remember, but here's the link again for anyone interested: Is it Time to Focus More on People and Less on Vegans?

While I like your attitude, I find so much wrong in the implementation of accepting the term 'vegan' to simply mean not being as bad as possible
I follow much of what Christians tout as exemplary, but without believing in God I realize I should go around identifying as Christian.

In particular, I think we might do better to move away from the idea that by devoting oneself unswervingly to a very strict set of behaviours one can become “a vegan”. Pursuing the idea that someone should be a vegan entrenches the idea of a division, ie people are vegan or non-vegan. It also helps to precipitate and prolong divisive argumentation about whether one thing or the other is more ethical. On the other hand, eliminating this concept of being a vegan and instead encouraging the idea that there just are people who make ethical choices might reduce this kind of tribalism and even encourage a more positive general opinion about the idea.

I've been in far too many discussions that begin with thinking we're in agreement, only to soon find out they're way out line with my thinking. This is usually a human rights thing. Yes, I definitely feel a need to distinguish my beliefs. You seem to think that the people ok with human slaughter, or pasture raised meat should be seen as baby vegans? Why aren't they then?
Veganism already provides for situations where it's not possible or practical. I hardly see it as a 'very strict set of behavoiours'. If you feel it's murder to kill without need then you don't reap the benefits of others doing it for you. Like someone money laundering for personal wealth knowing that money came from killing someone

But here's what really stood out for me:

Insofar as the term “vegan” goes, I propose looking back to previous social justice campaigns in relation to human rights. In that context, particular labels were attached to advocates/activists seeking social change. Consider abolitionists and suffragettes. The general community didn’t think of themselves as such. Nor when slavery was abolished and women got the vote did people more generally become abolitionists and suffragettes. Instead, once change was achieved, all we had were people as members of the newly extended moral community.

abolitionists didn't allow themselves to benefit from slavery
suffragettes didn't ask their husbands permission to protest
There aren't those who identify as such because for the most part, what they fought for has been won. We still have anti-rascists and feminists and a great need for that identification

 

[Graeme M]

While I like your attitude, I find so much wrong in the implementation of accepting the term 'vegan' to simply mean not being as bad as possible

I understand and I think that is an idea that many vegans find objectionable, because they regard this as a black and white issue. My wife is of that view. The rule is vegans don't eat meat, end of story. But I think there are reasons why veganism remains staggeringly unpopular.

You seem to think that the people ok with human slaughter, or pasture raised meat should be seen as baby vegans? Why aren't they then?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I don't think of those people as "baby vegans". I don't even think of them as vegans. I would like the idea that everyone can/should be vegans abandoned in favour of the idea that vegans are actual advocates/activists and everyone else just does what they think is reasonable.

abolitionists didn't allow themselves to benefit from slavery
suffragettes didn't ask their husbands permission to protest
There aren't those who identify as such because for the most part, what they fought for has been won. We still have anti-rascists and feminists and a great need for that identification

I think you are really agreeing with me.

 

[g0rph]

I still believe that veganism isn't even a lifestyle, it's simply everyday ethics extended to include other species whenever we can.

That's a really excellent way of explaining it.

 

[kelmoy1976]

I don't think so. I think the amount of excess packaging for vegan products is considered wasteful and a turnoff. I feel that normal people just don't want to poop as much as vegans. I think we need to hear more food diaries from people. We need more compassion for people working in meat packing plants especially on the killing floor. We need to realize that people working in meat packing including slaughterhouses are actually intelligent. I am trying to work with Dr Melanie Joy author of 'Why we love dogs eat pigs and wear cows' to make a more interactive forum. For now this is good but we vegans need to collaborate to tell the other 90% of the world why they are wrong in eating animals.

We need to host buffet on a frequent basis for the families who live near the meat packing plants. We could get these people into other jobs making plant based meat substitutes the mock meats fake meats alternative plant based meats. And I was going to talk about how 20% of the world's population wants to eat bugs. We are not asking people to eat what look like McNuggets but are made in the Netherlands out of meal worms. It is hard to understand people. We have to go through the workers and families of workers who are Americanized fluent in English and for sure don't want to work in meat processing when they grow up!

Dr Melanie Joy is looking for a communications director. I am going to apply for the job. I really don't like money and want to work for free. I am on SSI and don't really want to change my life as my rent is 1/3 of my income. I was explaining to my support system that in Scotland there is an aversion to money and Scotland is revered in Europe. I think the $70,000 I would get in salary compensation would be better spent on an additional forum out there with a catchy domain name. Thanks for letting me contribute.

Is anyone going to Animal Liberation Conference June 9 to June 14 in Berkeley California
I am also interested in working on Universal Healthcare for 16 million Americans without health insurance and no one would work in a slaughterhouse if they could get a better job or more money
They need some kind of relief
I am listening to a song by the O'Jays for the Love of Money
Money money money money, money [Repeat: x 6]
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me why'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
You want to do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money- dollar bills, why'all
For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money
For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar
I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People! Don't let money, don't let money change you,
It will keep on changing, changing up your mind.

 

[silva]

I don't think so. I think the amount of excess packaging for vegan products is considered wasteful and a turnoff. I feel that normal people just don't want to poop as much as vegans. I think we need to hear more food diaries from people. We need more compassion for people working in meat packing plants especially on the killing floor. We need to realize that people working in meat packing including slaughterhouses are actually intelligent. I am trying to work with Dr Melanie Joy author of 'Why we love dogs eat pigs and wear cows' to make a more interactive forum. For now this is good but we vegans need to collaborate to tell the other 90% of the world why they are wrong in eating animals.

We need to host buffet on a frequent basis for the families who live near the meat packing plants. We could get these people into other jobs making plant based meat substitutes the mock meats fake meats alternative plant based meats. And I was going to talk about how 20% of the world's population wants to eat bugs. We are not asking people to eat what look like McNuggets but are made in the Netherlands out of meal worms. It is hard to understand people. We have to go through the workers and families of workers who are Americanized fluent in English and for sure don't want to work in meat processing when they grow up!

Dr Melanie Joy is looking for a communications director. I am going to apply for the job. I really don't like money and want to work for free. I am on SSI and don't really want to change my life as my rent is 1/3 of my income. I was explaining to my support system that in Scotland there is an aversion to money and Scotland is revered in Europe. I think the $70,000 I would get in salary compensation would be better spent on an additional forum out there with a catchy domain name. Thanks for letting me contribute.

Is anyone going to Animal Liberation Conference June 9 to June 14 in Berkeley California
I am also interested in working on Universal Healthcare for 16 million Americans without health insurance and no one would work in a slaughterhouse if they could get a better job or more money
They need some kind of relief
I am listening to a song by the O'Jays for the Love of Money
Money money money money, money [Repeat: x 6]
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me why'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
You want to do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money- dollar bills, why'all
For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money
For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar
I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People! Don't let money, don't let money change you,
It will keep on changing, changing up your mind.

You're 46 and on SSI, but you don't want/like money . But you take SSI.....
The farmworkers picking and processing our produce aren't treated much better than slaughterhouse workers

 

[Envy]

In my understanding the ethical issue for many vegans is so strong that any compromise to the total avoidance is more or less the sin itself, and they don't want to be the "cool" vegan who is ok with something that they actually consider disgusting.

 

[Graeme M]

In my understanding the ethical issue for many vegans is so strong that any compromise to the total avoidance is more or less the sin itself, and they don't want to be the "cool" vegan who is ok with something that they actually consider disgusting.

I feel that people who become seriously vegan tend to be those with a strong sense of fairness who also are more likely to be intense about the things they do. The attention to being vegan enough sometimes borders on the obsessional from what I've seen. I don't think the average consumer is like that, which is why I suspect the best most people would be willing to do would be sort of vegan, maybe. I'd even say - as I did earlier in this thread - that it is unlikely we will see much genuine growth in veganism until such time as the idea is reformed in the public image.

 

[Brian W]

I feel that people who become seriously vegan tend to be those with a strong sense of fairness who also are more likely to be intense about the things they do. The attention to being vegan enough sometimes borders on the obsessional from what I've seen. I don't think the average consumer is like that, which is why I suspect the best most people would be willing to do would be sort of vegan, maybe. I'd even say - as I did earlier in this thread - that it is unlikely we will see much genuine growth in veganism until such time as the idea is reformed in the public image.

We don't all find it easy no matter how passionate we are about not causing suffering to animals. I struggled and failed many times just to be a vegetarian throughout my life and ended up with a compromise that at least reduced the damage I was doing. I found my key to total veganism quite by accident in the end but I think my struggles have allowed me to better understand and empathise with omnivores and ex vegans.

 

[majorbloodnok]

I feel that people who become seriously vegan tend to be those with a strong sense of fairness who also are more likely to be intense about the things they do. The attention to being vegan enough sometimes borders on the obsessional from what I've seen. I don't think the average consumer is like that, which is why I suspect the best most people would be willing to do would be sort of vegan, maybe. I'd even say - as I did earlier in this thread - that it is unlikely we will see much genuine growth in veganism until such time as the idea is reformed in the public image.

Concepts like “right” and “wrong” are surprisingly difficult to argue since they are subjective. Moral or ethical consistency is much easier to prove and is, arguably, just as important.

There are vast numbers of non-vegans whose ethical stances - if they have any - are inconsistent and flawed. However, that does not mean all. Similarly, there are vegans with flawed arguments too, but certainly not all. The stance of a consistent omnivore will be incompatible with that of a consistent vegan, but that doesn’t automatically make one right and one wrong. That’s the territory of intelligent discussion and persuasion or agreeing to disagree.

As a result, I feel any consistent stance should be treated with a degree of respect even if it is not one you yourself can agree with but any inconsistent stance deserves to be shot down in flames.

I forget who famously said (paraphrased) “I disagree with everything you say but I would fight to the death to defend your right to say it”, but it is a position we could all consider.

 

[Brian W]

Concepts like “right” and “wrong” are surprisingly difficult to argue since they are subjective.

I see where you are but there is a clear, instinctive sense of wrong that most of us would experience if we contemplate hurting without reason or killing without necessity. To me, the difficulty is in defining "necessary."

 

[majorbloodnok]

I see where you are but there is a clear, instinctive sense of wrong that most of us would experience if we contemplate hurting without reason or killing without necessity. To me, the difficulty is in defining "necessary."

I agree, but that sense of wrong is largely a learned or reasoned one, with instinct playing little part. And what is taught is a combination of the teacher’s stance and society’s norms. That, by extrapolation, suggests “right” is “what most people believe”. Change the majority view and we can certainly change the understanding of right and wrong - that’s exactly what has happened every time a country or people has converted to a different religion - but it’s still nigh on impossible to define any rights or wrongs in terms that can be “proven” without falling back on arguments that rely on opinion. I hasten to add that doesn’t mean an argument against theft or murder is inherently weak; just that it is not based on objective absolutes.

 

[Brian W]

I agree, but that sense of wrong is largely a learned or reasoned one, with instinct playing little part.

I think instinct plays a bigger part than you think because aggression is instinctively only used for survival and any aggression that is contrived for pleasure would feel inherently wrong to most. Even when a cat "plays" with a mouse, it is practicing hunting. I think when circumstances necessitate unusual aggression on an ongoing basis, we become immune to the suffering of others for a long time after the necessity is over. In other words, we "learn" that it is not wrong to cause unnecessary suffering under certain circumstances, but prior to learning it we would have instinctively recoiled at such a thought. Even wild animals experience empathy.

 

[majorbloodnok]

I think instinct plays a bigger part than you think because aggression is instinctively only used for survival and any aggression that is contrived for pleasure would feel inherently wrong to most. Even when a cat "plays" with a mouse, it is practicing hunting. I think when circumstances necessitate unusual aggression on an ongoing basis, we become immune to the suffering of others for a long time after the necessity is over. In other words, we "learn" that it is not wrong to cause unnecessary suffering under certain circumstances, but prior to learning it we would have instinctively recoiled at such a thought. Even wild animals experience empathy.

There are quite a few rabbit-holes you’ve opened up there, but I’ll try not to get distracted and focus on just one.

Whilst I agree all animals have the capacity to experience empathy, I disagree about the instinct for only killing what is needed - at least partially. Quite a few carnivores have to take what they catch back to the rest of their family so everyone can eat. This means the reward is dissociated somewhat from the strenuous act of hunting. Evolution has overcome that problem by introducing an “enjoyment” of killing in itself so the animal can get its immediate gratification. This is amply borne out by the fox in a hen-house; it will kill all the birds there, even if it then only takes what it wants back home. A cat that you’ve just fed will still catch a mouse if it sees one.

 

[Lou]

Ethics vs Morality
Philosophy 1A.

Both morality and ethics loosely have to do with distinguishing the difference between “good and bad” or “right and wrong.” Many people think of morality as something that's personal and normative, whereas ethics is the standards of “good and bad” distinguished by a certain community or social setting.​

​

ethics are external. They can be codes of conduct you follow at school or work, or a list of rules to follow in a religion. Morality, on the other hand, is internal. It is your own personal belief about what is right and wrong.​

​

One controversial example from history is the dropping of the atomic bombs in World War II. The bombs were dropped on civilian populations, which is immoral, but the ethical argument is that ending the war sooner saved more lives than were lost in the bombings.​

Veganism is an ethical commitment to impose the least possible harm on the nonhuman animals that we share Earth with. People who live vegan follow a fully plant-based diet, omitting animal flesh and secretions such as milk, honey, or eggs from their plates.​

​

Veganism is a moral position that opposes exploiting and otherwise harming nonhuman animals. This includes what we do directly, such as hunting or fishing. It also includes what we support as consumers, which affects many more animals.​

​

​

----------​

​

If the last two statement leave you confused it's because veganism is both an ethical commitment and a moral position. The set of rules that govern veganism may not all be written down but they are extensions and extrapoltiohnas that are derived from the definition.

However, you wouldn't have looked up the definition unless you had already decided that there was something wrong with eating animals.
---------
-https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-morality-and-ethics#:~:text=Both%20morality%20and%20ethics%20loosely,certain%20community%20or%20social%20setting.

-https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/morality/the-battle-between-morality-vs-ethics-which-one-wins/#

-https://www.animal-ethics.org/veganism/#:~:text=Veganism%20is%20a%20moral%20position,which%20affects%20many%20more%20animals.

-https://sentientmedia.org/veganism/#:~:text=Veganism%20is%20an%20ethical%20commitment,or%20eggs%20from%20their%20plates.

- Veganism — Animal Ethics.

 

[majorbloodnok]

@Brian W, on re-reading my last post I should underline that I'm not disagreeing in the slightest with your sense of right and wrong; merely on the objectivity/subjectivity topic.

 

[Brian W]

@Brian W, on re-reading my last post I should underline that I'm not disagreeing in the slightest with your sense of right and wrong; merely on the objectivity/subjectivity topic.

It's difficult to invoke objective/subjective really on the grounds that we can only know anything via personal experience.

 

[majorbloodnok]

It's difficult to invoke objective/subjective really on the grounds that we can only know anything via personal experience.

In the Descartes sense, yes absolutely; the only thing one person can know without any doubt is that they exist. However, if we accept the normal "balance of probabilities" understanding that allows for collaboration (e.g. for scientific research), there are many things that can be proven. "Right" and "wrong" are not among them.

Having said that, if we add some context then we can start to bring right and wrong into the realms of the objective. For instance, the assertion that "In the United Kingdom, theft is considered wrong" is perfectly provable, especially since theft is also illegal. However, it is only deemed wrong and illegal because the majority of the population agree that it should be so, and this is where vegan arguments can run into difficulties. It is difficult to argue successfully that something is "wrong" if it is not seen as wrong to the majority. Of course, once the majority opinion has been changed, it becomes a different matter, but this is precisely the point I made a number of posts ago. It is a far stronger position to attack ethical and moral inconsistencies that undermine the positions of the many sloppy thinkers.

 

[kelmoy1976]

You're 46 and on SSI, but you don't want/like money . But you take SSI.....
The farmworkers picking and processing our produce aren't treated much better than slaughterhouse workers

Why do I have to be picked on if I admit I am on SSI. At least I am not a criminal or like other capitalists trying to squeeze water out of a rock. Or resorting to dishonesty like plenty of people do to make money. I consider my SSI as Universal Basic Income. I would love to be a farmworker since I really enjoy growing plants. But it is a little challenging lining up internships to internships with WWOOF.

Last fall I kept seeing Keanu Reeves on the bus in Burlington Vermont. Next time I see a famous person, I am going to interact more with them. Not wait for them to talk to me. I don't think you would care about me if I was homeless and struggling under the freeway. People are on SSI for different reasons. You likely collect fast fashion. Why don't you use your time to pick on some meat eaters.

I have used some of my time to reach out to influential people such as Alan Jackson just a few comments on YouTube got this person who is famous for singing and selling concert tickets to ask me to help with a foundation that their fans have asked for a foundation to help out people with disabilities.

And just because I used 1976 you are not more clever or useful than me if you are from the 1980s or 1990s. I am full of stories, I lived in really interesting times. I have traveled to 47 states.

I hate how this world is about money and status and leave other people behind. I have decided to live my life in letters and write to influential people for also Universal Health Care.

Also age reversal is likely happening now.
I am really excited about publishing my story, there is really nothing else like it.

I think you are a little screwed up thinking we should have Roundup in our food supply and the chemicals used in agriculture are far worse than GMOs. But you are one of the goodie two shoes like my art teacher used to say. Someone likely helped you and your family with English. I am one of the descendants of King Alfred. So I kind of resent people like that.

I am not sure what will come out of vegan forum other than fighting. I am not here to fight the vegan community. I think we should enjoy food and eat better food.

Also that was rude since
it is like saying i did not marry some rich guy.
pick on more people not just me millenial or gen z

 

[kelmoy1976]

You're 46 and on SSI, but you don't want/like money . But you take SSI.....
The farmworkers picking and processing our produce aren't treated much better than slaughterhouse workers

I am willing to put in time as an activist
I am really proud of being a bi-cenntial baby
too bad you are doing the math
what do you do
you remind me of one of those people getting a nasty egg sandwich near San Francisco City Hall for $15
you really wanted me to feel bad
I have awesome friends older than me and would never use age against them. they grew up in a different time when the age of Aquarius by the Fifth Dimension was playing on the radio
I would like to find a group to fight Monsanto's Roundup
I did an experiment with a bag of potatoes from the 99 cent store
I was also taking care of a cat named Noe that started talking
I have to get back in communication with Melissa in Portland Oregon who has Noe
There was also a talking boy cat in Delmar kept saying 'i love you Noe'
if we can prove that animals are speaking intelligently and not just mimicking then that hopefully would be substantial enough to convince people we have some massive disconnect and animal abuse going on just to eat cow burgers, ribs, McNuggets

I have spent alot of time at a resource center watching people show interest in the plant based meat then making a face of revulsion when told it is made from plants. I need to get back to my book soon, balut is an egg at 14 to 21 in incubation that is steamed found in the Philippines. I need to be grossed out as much as possible.
It seems like people have pica
Why aren't we all demanding organic food
what would happen if the world went organic?
The Gates have millions of acres of land just sitting there.
we should enjoy life more and eat better
I still have not had the oyster mushroom fried chicken

 

[kelmoy1976]

I think we should fight Roundup and chemicals used in agriculture
I think CRISPR CAS9 is fake and we have no real way of knowing only than what we are told

Eating better is a human right
And there is open land where all organic growing can be done?
Plenty of it exists
How are vegans out of touch with reality?
I think maybe eating fish is helpful as it is considered brain power
Fish don't experience psychological pain their entire lives the way cattle on a feed lot do
Also 2 billion people on the planet want to eat insects, insects are animals
I think we should point out a grossness factor to people eating meat, maybe it will sink in
Sometimes eating all plant based I don't necessarily have enough mental energy with the exception of drinking what I was told is Farmer's brand coffee at the food court at MIT
I think rather than fighting, I am going to use time better to write to influential people and avoid getting picked on here.
I could write to Lindsay Graham more about eating better concentrate on influencing a senator in South Carolina where I already made some progress and got an email thanking me from some YouTube comments.
I have already learned my lesson from Facebook about avoiding normal people and going to influential people. There is more likely to be a positive response.